I started this thread after my letter appeared in the Weekend Post of Saturday June 30, 2007. I published my email address and received the expected massive response. Please pop back to this site often as I will continually add more letters at the bottom of the thread.
Each time anything appears in this newspaper questioning the basic logic of Christianity, there follows a smattering of letters quoting from the bible. Whenever I have submitted letters in this regard I have usually made it clear that the bible is merely a book compiled by humans, to suit humans of the time, yet this point is always ignored and there follows another round of quotes from this ancient tome. R Williams made the point that without a bible to tell us what to do, we are all doomed. She makes the common mistake of directly linking Christianity with goodness, whereas this is most definitely not the case. Most of the worlds problems in fact stem directly from religious extremism and if every religious nutter on this planet were summarily removed, violence and terrorism would be reduced to a fraction of what we now have.
Religion was invented when human beings really had no idea what was out there and the story of there being a white male with a long white beard sitting in the clouds, who created everything, was a comforting thought for those who cannot bear the thought of dying and not having an after-life. Those days though, humans only knew what they could see from the earth with the naked eye. This state of affairs remained for many years until very recently, barely more than fifty years ago, when the technological era began in earnest. These days we have vehicles driving around on Mars, beaming high resolution pictures back to earth, and we have massive telescopes looking billions of light years into the vast universe, and so far it appears that we are alone. There is no proof at all of anyone watching over us and if even there were, we have no idea who or what. Whatever it is that placed us here, along with the billions of other fantastic species that make up life on earth, we actually have no idea what it is. Pointing children to the bible and then brainwashing them into believing the simplistic explanation therein is irresponsible. There is a new age of free thinkers that inquire beyond what Corinthians chapter whatever might proffer.
It is in fact a pity that the basic goodness of churches is always tied directly to some or other religion. Why must you believe in a particular religious story in order to have a peaceful place of serenity for grieving, celebration, or whatever? Why are the only choices for a legal marriage either a religious church, or a dank courthouse? People like myself, who do not prescribe to any religion, have no choice in the matter. If we want to mourn the loss of a loved one, we have no choice but to sit in a pew and listen to scripture, with its usual persuasive indoctrination. Watch the Ray McCauley show on television on Sunday mornings and there you will hear a constant diatribe of trying to convince people that they are being watched, and that they need to bow down and worship or be struck down by a bolt from the blue. Hammering such drivel into the gullible, and our youth, is irresponsible and criminal. Christians try to prevent free thinking and constantly berate people to be quiet, and be one of many sheep. To this end, ministers refer to their subjects as their “flock”, a fitting name if ever there was one.
I have often spoken out against religion and have received responses ranging from mild amusement, to anger, to vicious disagreement. Why then are there so many different religions? If there were really just one true story, with evidence to back it up, there would be just one religion surely?
I invite any reporter to spend some time with me and my own family for any length of time to see what a non-religious family is like. My two children are the nicest people I know, have the sweetest and dearest personalities, my wife is a calm, loving person, her and I have never had even one argument in our 17 years of marriage, and I most definitely do not mess around on my wife, or she on me. We have a calm, gentle home yet there is absolutely no religion in it. We are free thinkers, that question everything and we have inquiring minds. We prescribe only to doing good to as many others as you possibly can, and enjoying the limited time that you have as a living creature.
Think about it.
Gary Wiblin
Summerstrand
wiblin@aerosat.co.za
http://www.wingwalker.co.za/
This letter brought in a flurry of responses, some of which I will copy and paste below here, sometimes with my own responses to the writers:
Hi Gary,You are right Religion is the cause of much controversy, and distortions as you say in your article.Christianity on the other hand is the ONLY way to find GOD, is not about Religion, but is all about relationship.Here is a scripture your "enquiring mind" may chose to read. You should understand its "simplistic" message.2Corinthians 2 vs15 to 16For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one we are the aroma of death to death, and to the other the aroma of life to life. And who is sufficient of these things?
Hi Phil
The passage you sent me means absolutely nothing. It is merely words all strung together. Why do you feel the need to learn riddles and try to find meaning in them? What good does that do? The truth of the matter is that there is no proof at all of any god looking down on us and there is certainly no need for people to bow down and worship some mythical being purely out of fear of being struck down by a bolt from the blue. Quoting yet another silly passage out of the bible has as little effect as quoting from any other religious book. The truth of the matter is that children, with their impressionable minds, are being brainwashed into believing a mythical tale because their parents are scared of dying. The cycle then constantly repeats itself. Break the cycle Phil.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
Dear Gary,
I have picked up your mail, as Phils mail comes to my desk, so if you don't mind, I would like to respond.
Possibly you meant your article to be a statement, rather than elicit a 'debate', but may I take the liberty to answer?
I can relate entirely to your sentiments expressed in your response, regarding it all being merely words strung together.
So often I have thought, how is it that the truth of God can be so powerful in my life, when in fact it is just words from the English dictionary! But when you accept the truth in faith, you begin to rise above the carnal man which lives by feelings. God breaths his Spirit on His word, and combined with an open heart, it is no longer just English language.
There is no other 'force' that can inspire you to live unselfishly or to forgive, except the love of God.
I am interested in your explanation of the following:
1) the historical background of the Bible
2) creation
Regards,
ROSE
(Phils wife)
Hi Rose
Thank you for your polite response. I must admit that I expected religious people to attack me personally but that has most definitely not been the case. So far in fact I have received 14 responses agreeing with me and two (including yours) disagreeing. Without blaspheming your spiritual beliefs I would merely like to state that I believe that many generations of people have been systematically brainwashed into believing that they are "being watched" and that, unless they worship, and go to church regularly, they will "go to hell". That is a cruel and terrible thing to brainwash into so many gullible (and scared) people. It is also just not true. Because I have taken a stand against religion in any form I do not believe I will be struck down by a bolt from the blue. I also do not believe that I will be cast into a boiling pit of lava for all eternity. I do not subscribe to any such beliefs, and I think they are silly. It is cruel to burn such images into the minds of impressionable children and thereby force yet another generation to go through life "fearing" everything. My own children fear nothing, as they live in an open, honest home, and my wife and I shower them with attention and love.
Rose, I do not want to try and spoil the beliefs of people who may have spent their entire lives in church, and believe that they will soon be going to a better place. If that is what you believe, then I wish you well. I am merely taking a stand because I have personally become weary of having religion forced upon me wherever I go. When I have begun conversations with people and started to question christianity, I have always been shushed and told not to go there. A case of "be quiet, and don't ask questions". That unfortunately though is not how I am wired. I question everything. If I am told to jump off a bridge and "believe" that I will be saved, I will not do it. Asking me to explain quotes from the bible is like me asking you to explain quotes from the Koran. If you do not have any desire to study the Koran, why would you want to try and explain its theories?
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
Hi again Gary,
We should be working, but anyway....! Yes, I think ultimately, its not what one believes that matters, but what is the truth. And there has to be a basis for truth. The subject of truth is a favorite topic of mine, not that I know it all, or even a lot, but truth is always sound, and reliable, and can be trusted. Whereas the opposite is like a quagmire.
May I ask you, when you feel that something has gone your way, or its a particularly beautiful day, or you consider, for example your lovely wife, and the health of your children...... when you feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude for the good that you have enjoyed in your life,
To whom are you grateful? Or is it merely your own efforts that are the mainstay of those situations?
Rose
Hi Rose
When I look at my wonderful children I am extremely grateful, but to who or what I do not know. And neither do you. Christians claim to know where we come from and where we are going to. You don't know. You have as much idea as I do. Most christians I have debated with always end up saying "but I must have somebody to thank". Oh really? So you then make up a fictitious being? I prefer not to pretend I know where we come from, who made us, what put us here etc etc. I really have no idea. Christians state that, because Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, that is all the proof they need. Jesus was a person who started yet another religion, was publicly murdered, put in a cave, and his body was removed during the night. Nobody knows who took his body or where they took it to. Those are the facts. Christians changed it to believe that he rose from the dead. Christians also base their belief strongly on Mary being a virgin. Oh really? Says who? Were there doctors at the time that were able to tell? Would she have succumbed to such a medical check?
As you can see Rose, I merely check things against what is most likely and of course look for any proof. With the lack of any proof, I then do not believe. Christians say that Adam was the first person on earth ie. a young white male. Scientists have proof that the first person on earth was a black female in Central Africa. In fact, science is disproving many of the religious theories that I too was brainwashed with. When geologists recently had some evidence that they may well have discovered the remains of Jesus, preachers stated that they would just never accept that as: "the resurrection is integral to our belief". In other words, "we will never accept any fact, only folklore". Mmmm...... I would prefer to look at things realistically.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
And then some others.......
Free-thinking Mr Gary Wiblin, apparently friend of the swanky Hilary (WP 30/6/07), makes good sense. He is agnostic, which is a perfectly rational position to take. To someone like himself, for whom the Bible (and, I would assume, the holy books of all religions) is not an objective authority, there is no point in quoting Bible verses at him in order to attempt to persuade him differently. His argument is against Religion of the "bell, book and candle" variety - i.e., against formalised, institutional Religion and its man-made traditions (bell); against the unreasoning and unreasonable acceptance of ancient scripts as somehow possessing an infallibility attributed to them by generations long past who did not possess the knowledge of the natural world and the universe that we do; against rituals of sign and sacrament whereby Religion seeks to impose its authority, belief systems and priestly functions of allaying fear, dispelling anxiety and absolving guilt (candle).
However, perhaps Gary has not adequately considered that there might be an alternative to that Religion of the kind he opposes. As one who is Christian by faith, conviction and experience, I am aware that I am a product of the culture in which I grew up. Had I been born in Saudi Arabia I might not have the beliefs I now have. Religious belief undoubtedly has a cultural bias: for the most part people come to believe what they do because of geography - it all depends on where in the world one was born and grew up. But there is an alternative - individuals can choose to study other cultures, other belief systems and their histories and, in consequence, come to believe what seems to that person most reasonable (rational) and which will then become that person's 'religion' - with a small 'r'. I, for example, cannot believe that this complex universe governed by physical laws that are quite beautiful in their simplicity, came into being through a cosmic accident, that it exists for no purpose and that it has no ultimate meaning. That kind of science, it seems to me, requires an act of faith from me far greater than my faith in the existence of a Cosmic Creator and Designer. In fact, I would go so far as to assert that it actually insults my intelligence. I would ask Gary to have a look at what cosmologists are saying about "dark energy" comprising 96% of the known cosmos - something which is presently not amenable to normal methods of research. I would also ask Gary to consider that if there is a God, he is knowable - there is no point in an unknowable God, which would make all religions plain stupid - and if he is knowable, to ask sincerely that in some way he make himself known to Gary Wiblin, as He has done to a lot of others who, like myself, are less worthy than Gary. (Denis, Grahamstown)
Hi Dennis
Thanks for your email. I know all christians mean well when they argue their point with me but I have still yet to find an argument for religion that is not of the variety of "since we have no idea why we are here, we need to presume there is a chap called god, and we need to rever and worship him, or we will surely go to hell". The argument that the world and its fantastic species, rivers, seas, trees, etc just cannot possibly have happened by chance is just not good enough reason for me to then invent a story and stick to it. Christians say they have the answer, there is one person that built everything, whereas I merely say that I have absolutely no idea who or what put us here. Going on my knees and worshipping the sky, just in case, is really unnecessary. If there really is just one being that put us all here, I am sure that being will be happy with you if you are merely a good person. I just cannot bring myself to chant at the sky, just in case!
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
And some more.....
Dear Gary,
Thank you for your interesting letter in the Week End Post last week – I have not read any of your previous letters, so this was new to me. I am not going to speak about ‘religion’, or try to prove or disprove God – I don’t need to do that. You are to be congratulated on your exemplary life and family – and I respect your right to choice whatever way you wish to live, suppose our Creator God made us that way – He gave us free choice, to love Him and to acknowledge His presence, or not to, otherwise He could have made us all robots with no will of our own. However, that was not His plan – He longed for His creation to have a relationship with Him because they wanted to, and not because He forced them to – gave us the opportunity to return the unconditional love that He offers all His creation.
And that is what is so absolutely wonderful and beautiful, a mystery – to have a living, loving relationship with our Creator God – He who spoke a world into being – He who made every beautiful aspect of this world we live in, and then gave it to us, richly to enjoy. However, again, man thought otherwise, and because of our disobedience, the fall came and our beautiful Garden of Eden, was changed and the beautiful became not so beautiful, but in spite of all this, His basic creation remained, and He has never abandoned us – His creation. This Holy, Awesome, Perfect, Loving, Perfect God, has made it possible for us through Jesus , His Son and Holy Spirit, to come into His presence and call Him – ‘Father, Abba Father, My Father’ – beyond description, but infinitely wonderful to experience, and nothing can change that or take that away from those who truly believe – I know whom I have believed, my Redeemer Liveth – I know what I know what I know – God is enough for yesterday, God is enough for today and God is enough for tomorrow. The Bible is a Holy Book, inspired by God, written by man – God said it, Jesus confirmed it, The Bible teaches it, I believe it, that settles it. He is first and foremast, a God of embracing love, a love that will never let us go – a love that sustains us through the valleys and the hilltop experiences – His promise – ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you’ remains true, because His is the word of a gentleman.
Please, may I share a writing which is so precious to me, written by a beloved believer:
May the God of hope continue
To fill your hearts and lives with dreams and visions
Of a transformed present and a glorious future.
May the God of faith continue
To instil in you courage
To dare to embrace the hope you dream of
And may the God of love empower you
With the strength that shook and shaped the world
And continues to mould it in His image.
Go forward, then, into the unfolding present,
In the expectation of Hope,
The courage of Faith
And the strength of Love
And the God of Faith, Hope and Love go always with you.
With Christian Greetings – go well into the future – God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform!
God Bless.
Freda
Hi Freda
You sound really scary. You really do. You state "He could have made us all robots with no will of our own". You have absolutely no will of your own, you are living in some sort of dreamlike state, absolutely idolising a being that you have invented. You are really quite scary Freda, no offense to you personally, but you really are. You also state "You are to be congratulated on your exemplary life and family". Please do not patronise me. I always welcome intelligent debate, but this email is not one I care to spend too much time responding to. You go right ahead and waste all of your time chanting at the sky if that is what makes you happy.
You state, and I quote: "I have not read any of your previous letters, so this was new to me." How then do you know I have had any letters published before?
Gary Wiblin
Dear Gary Wiblin
I have noted your letters in the past, but now I feel I need to respond to the latest one which was given so much prominence including a photo of your handsome self.
Are you having us on – or do you really believe the wild things you say? On what source material are your suppositions based? Some of the statements you made show a lack of information and are simply not true. Example: Christianity is a religion. A religious person goes to great lengths to please God by charitable deeds, going to church, climbing the Spanish Steps on his/her knees, even becoming a suicide bomber. A Christian say: I’m a sinner. There is nothing good about me. I need God’s forgiveness and acceptance and also His constant presence with me to help me to live the new life He gives me.
A Christian’s main source material is a compilation of writings by 40 authors spanning 1500 years , all teaching that God exists, that He created the universe and maintains it so that sunrises , high and low tides, trips to the moon, can be predicted to the very minute. These writers are unanimous about God’s character and His dealings with humankind, and, what is more, they have all, without exception had a personal encounter with Him.
Have you made a study of these writings? If not, then your assessment of the Bible is based on your preconceived ideas and is therefore unacceptable. Why are you so upset by what Christians believe? If you are so secure in your atheism, then surely what we believe should not affect you at all?
Of course you are free to choose what you want to believe, or not believe. I am intrigued by your statement that you have been placed here by you “have no idea who or what”. Have you never asked yourself:-
*Who am I? *Where did I come from? *Why am I here? *Where am I going? *How do I get there?
Everyone who has put their faith in Jesus Christ can answer these questions. Can you?
We have to smile at your description of your “calm” home. Ask any Christian couple whether they have had any disagreements and they will say: Often! But we also receive grace to talk things through, to offer forgiveness and to find our relationship rock solid because it is built on the Rock. This is my personal experience after 48 years of marriage. Obviously the bad times have not come yet for you. When they do, who are you going to turn to?
What if…………………the Bible is true, there is a God, there is life after death, there is a heaven and a hell???
What if you are deluded? What kind of freedom is that…….not knowing for sure?
I challenge you to start seeking God. May you not rest until you find Him. He is waiting to be found by you.
Yours sincerely, Anne
Hi Anne
Forty-eight years of marriage? Wow, I am very impressed and I aim to at least meet that, if not better it.
Anne, your email to me is much like all the other negative ones I have received. Those that oppose my view all state "what if there is something after life?" This has always been my point though - I find that all (or most) christians worship their perceived higher being "just in case". You too state that. Christians tend to go to church, pray, and do whatever else it is christians do merely in case there is an afterlife. I sincerely believe that there is no afterlife. It just could not work for various reasons, but I am not going to raise those reasons here. This is because I believe that, if you really believe what you believe, then rather leave it that way. If you have been married for 48 years you must surely be in your 70's by now and you have lived your life on a certain course. I really do not expect someone like you to now suddenly listen to the new-age (radical?) views of someone like me. Not at all. I would in any case not like to try and trample on your beliefs either. My own mother is a staunch christian and is very disappointed in my views, especially since I have now gone public with them. I do not want my mom to change her views either, what would be the gain in that? She is a lovely, soft human being and she loves her religion. I would never try and deny her that.
The whole point of my letter was to merely say to all religious people: "There are those of us that do not believe in what you believe in. Please accept it. Do not look down on us, and do not constantly expect us to take part in your rituals". Let's face it Anne, all of us were brainwashed with christianity from birth, so it is very difficult for anyone to break out of that mould. I have given this a lot of thought over about 25 years and I grow more certain of my belief every day. I have also been reading a lot on the subject, by various authors, and this too makes me more and more sure with each passing day. But that is merely me Anne, nobody else needs to follow in my footsteps. Even my children, I have told them that they must make up their own minds. My daughter is 16 and my son nearly 9. He has recently been reading a bible that my mother gave to him. I have left him to read it. As my children's father, I merely try to guide them, but they must make their own choices.
BTW: You ask what I would do if things had to go wrong in my life - hoo boy! My wife and I have gone through some very trying times and even now things are very difficult sometimes. We work very hard but we have never yet made a lot of money. We are comfortable though, and we look after each other. My children are also very healthy for which I am extremely grateful. If I knew that there was someone out there to thank for that I really would, but I do not believe that any being is watching me in particular. I have no idea why I am here, and I accept that.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
And how about this beaut....
The following is an actual question given on a University of Liverpool> chemistry final exam. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues via the Internet, which is why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well. Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's law that gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that, if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell. Because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay constant, the volume of Hell must expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Sandra during my freshman year, that "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is endothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is extinct ... leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being - which explains why, last night, Sandra kept shouting "Oh my God."
THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A".
Hi Gary
I imagine you've had a mass of rude and threatening letters in response to your excellent one in the paper this weekend! Sadly, religious people seem to sink quickly to lower depths than others, in my experience.
I agree completely with your views - it has taken me perhaps rather longer than you to get there - I was still on the church council of St Cuthbert's three years ago and had always been deeply immersed in Anglicanism. My point of departure was the complete inability to honestly regard christianity as the only 'right' religion, with all the others 'wrong'. Clergy are completely unable to give a satisfactory answer to this - 'have faith' is all I got! This presumptious arrogance flies in the face of my intelligence!
I've been reading a bit of religious people who are going the same way - Bishop Selby Spong is hugely popular at the moment. He's a retired US Bishop (Anglican equivalent), and his views largely echo yours and mine. He suggests that there's still something to be 'worshipped' (not the right word, I think), as he simply isn't able to let go of his religious life. But he pours scorn on basic christian thinking.
Anyway, a great letter - I hope they don't publish all the responses as they will tire me enormously!
Regards
Mike
Dear Gary Wiblin
I enjoyed your letter to the Weekend Post on religion, and I thought you might be interested in a point made by the Nobel Physics Laureate Steven Weinberg, which goes:
"With and without religion good people do good deeds and bad people do evil deeds; but for good people to do bad deeds, that takes religion." (One might add ideologies such as communism and fascism as species of religion.) The quote is more than 90% correct. I'm not sure about the punctuation.
What also intrigues me is the myth that there is freedom of religion, for how else is religion perpetuated on such a vast scale but by being transmitted from parents to children before the latter have the chance to make rational decisions for themselves ? And of course there are also the denominational schools, particularly Roman Catholic, Anglican and Methodist in this country.
Best of luck,
Terence
Hello there,
Read your Letter to the Editor in the Weekend Post June 30, 2007. Good - didn't think that somebody in South Africa would dare to say something like this openly. We were once told by a member of the community: "Ron, do you know that it only counts before God when you do good through the church?" .....
Well - we keep on trying to do our best for needy people and do not visit any church (except when we have to - for example because of the funeral of a friend). With less of those fundamentalist religious people the world would be a much better and more peaceful place.
Kind regards
Ron
Over the past few years I have enjoyed your fairly regular letters to the Herald and I was impressed with the one last weekend. The picture and letter this weekend delighted me. I had the misfortune of having parents who were fundamental xtians belonging to a small sect who believe that they are definitely the only people that have any chance of going to heaven. I have been an atheist since the age of 12 which would make it for about 51 years now, but have only recently started feeling that we atheists should make an effort to stop allowing the religious nutters from continually grabbing the moral high ground. You have made a good start and I would like to support you. My wife and I have also never had an argument and I believe we set a good example in the moral sense although I am not the charitable type.
I recently read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and have been enjoying his website http://richarddawkins.net/
Best wishes,
Humphrey
Ata Boy - Gary you have done it again. Congratulations on an excellent letter on religion. 'Ministers refer to their subjects as their flock'. That crack gave the best laugh of the weekend for me.
Loved every word you wrote.
Sock it to them.
Gordon
Hello Gary,
I have just read your article on religion and
aetheism.
You say that you get you get a lot of negative
response. Well, for once you have a very
positive response. I agrre with all you say,
except that you say that we don't know where
we came from. Darwin spelled it out quite
clearly, and since Richard Dawkins has
written a few books on the subject of both anti-
religion and evolution. I have just started on his
book "The Blind Watchmaker" which deals with
evolution.
I quite agree, religious poeple are indocrinated
int not thinkung for themselves. What I can't
understand is that there are a lot of intellegent
people with university degrees that take it all in!
I thought universities were there to basically
teach people to think.
I agree that people have the lack of imagination
to realise that when you are dead, you are dead.
Eternity is equivalent to infinity. I can't imagine
sitting on a cloud doing nothing for an infinite
length of time! What hell that would be.
Regards and best of luck,
Charles
Charles, I also do not believe that people evolved from apes. Why should they have? We merely evolved from ancient people, who I am sure looked a whole lot different to how we look today. People in Central Africa are very dark and black, those in Britain are very pale, eastern people are short and of slight stature due to their diet, and so on. This will of course change soon due to the fact that people will all move about the planet with increasing ease as global travel becomes easier and cheaper and eventually most people will look similar though. There is no reason to believe that we originated from a completely different species. Primitive man though would have been very similar to apes in many respects. Also, we are very lucky to be living in such interesting times. If you consider that 5000 years ago people lived very much as they did just 150 years ago, with very little different in buildings, technology etc, it can then be appreciated that we have lived through a massively steep phase of human enhancement, with the inventions of electricity, telephones, cars, aeroplanes, computers, television, and in fact the simply hundreds of things that make our lives incredibly interesting and comfortable. We have had people walk on the moon, right now there are people living in space, circling the earth every 90 minutes, I can chat in real time to anyone, anywhere on the planet via cellphone, Doctors perform heart and lung transplants, and, where do I stop! We have lived through a massively steep advancement curve, yet there are people that spend their short, valuable lives in church, chanting to nobody in particular. They chant merely in the hope that someone is listening. Why? Get on with it and live your lives man! People that tell me that they "have personal discussions with god" literally need to get themselves checked out by a professional head doctor. They are obviously delusional.
Some years ago I wrote a book called "The world is full of morons", a very light-hearted (but also serious) look at the dumb things that people sometimes do. Needless to say, I could never find anyone to publish it. Oh well, probably a good thing! It does though contain a chapter on religion, which I have copied and pasted below here. Enjoy!
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
What is it about religious people that they attribute each and every normal act to god? In a recent newspaper article, an armed mugger downtown accosted a woman and an innocent passer-by came around the corner at exactly that moment. The mugger took fright, fired at the passer-by, and disappeared. The person was injured but survived. When being interviewed by the media, her statement went something like this: “I was walking downtown when god told me to turn left into the alcove. When the mugger attacked, god made Mr X turn into the alcove as well and he took the shot that was meant for me. It is gods will that Mr X survived. Praise be to god”.
What absolute drivel! I know quite a few people who talk like this and I am constantly amazed that any person with even a modicum of intelligence can find such simplistic reasons for the everyday coincidences that make up our daily lives. These same people will sit in a chair, get up and go to the loo, and return, without thinking anything of it. But, let a bullet smash through the window and thud into the chair where they were just sitting a moment ago, and the statement will read something like this: “god told me to get up and go to the loo at exactly that moment. If god hadn’t told me to do so, I would surely be dead now. Praise god”. They neglect to explain why god made the bullet slam into the chair in the first place.
I realise I am treading on hallowed ground here and realise too that mentally deranged people, and others, may take extreme offence to what I am saying, but that in itself helps to clarify the point I am trying to make. If a person is prepared to injure or kill another person because they do not agree with their view on religion, it surely points to that person being dangerously deranged and not a lover of his neighbour, as the bible teaches. Make no mistake, I do agree that the bible is simply brimming with good advice but it must be remembered that human beings wrote it, many years ago. Its basic advice is good but it is often taken too literally by uneducated people.
For example, its recommendation to take an eye for an eye relies on long discarded ideals. If we were all forced to live by the rules that were written 2000 years ago we would surely not be making much progress. It was Ghandi who put it so succinctly when he said: “If we were to take an eye for an eye the world would be blind”.
All the radical religious fanatics that I have met tend to ignore the fact that there are some very serious holes in the religious theory of life and the afterlife. They live by the extremely simplistic decree that all good people go to heaven and all bad people go to hell. No in between. Picture the scene: You’re standing at the pearly gates and St Peter says: “Sorry Mr X, you’ve been a great person all your life, you’ve done lots of good, but that one time you got fresh with the pretty neighbour, well, that’s inexcusable Sir. Off you go, burn in hell for all eternity”. Then along comes Mr Y. He was a serial killer and child rapist all his life but a few weeks before he knew he was going to die, he suddenly “turned to god”. Picture the scene at the pearly gate: “Well Mr Y, I am glad to see that you finally saw the error of your ways. In you go. Live in paradise for all eternity”.
This line of thinking is of course seriously flawed but unfortunately religion would just not work if it were not for this rule. Imagine the chap who wants to “turn to god” only to be told: “Sorry Sir, but that time that you bunked school twenty years back, that’s inexcusable. You may as well just do as you please because there is no way you will ever pass through the pearly gates”. This of course would unravel the tenuous thread of the religious movement as we know it and dangerous people that are thankfully kept under control by the threat of “going to hell” would otherwise run riot.
Most people need a “rule book” to give them direction whereas people with natural intelligence are able to survive in an overpopulated world without being nasty or hurtful to anyone. I make this statement because it is too often the case that radical religious fanatics were previously bad people in some or other way. The only thing therefore that keeps them on the straight and narrow is if they are convinced to believe that “big brother is watching” and if they put another foot wrong they will burn in hell for all eternity. This in fact usually does the trick but these self-same people then wonder why all the normal people don’t spend their lives praying and talking about god with that syrupy sweet look that most religious nuts get when they go on about their hero. If there actually is a god (and he certainly hasn’t shown his face yet!) do these people honestly believe that they would then be required by him to spend so much time chanting at the sky? Do they honestly think that one god would be able to listen individually to a few billion people each day? When a religious persons personal wish comes true they immediately wax lyrical about how god answered their prayers but when an innocent child is tortured, raped, and murdered the retort is: “god works in mysterious ways”. Darn right there! That’s about as mysterious as you can get.
I have often asked religious people to explain why they are so convinced about the existence of god when there is absolutely no evidence at all to suggest his existence and, by and large, the answer is always the same: “How do you explain our existence, the birds and the bees, the trees, the fragile eco-system, etc”? In other words, religious people contend that, since they have no idea why we are here, they need to invent a story. The story of god and jesus satisfies their need to understand why we are here and, very often, gives them some direction in life. They then go happily on their way and never bother to pay any attention to scientific fact. When scientists uncover scientific evidence of evolution, all god-fearers dismiss these findings in their entirety. When scientists show physical proof that some land creatures were in fact originally fish, they are dismissed as crackpots. The fact that even today we are able to witness a form of evolution in a tadpole changing to a frog and a silkworm changing to a moth completely eludes our chanters at the sky. They tend to ignore fact. They prefer to stay focused on the vision of a young white couple living in the Garden of Eden, eating apples. It fits the fairytale story. The reality that scientists have proof that the first human being on earth was in fact a black female in central Africa does not fit the fairytale and is therefore dismissed outright.
Switch on your TV on a Sunday and tune to one of the commercial religion channels. There you will see skilful public speakers, constantly waving heavy bibles in the air, admonishing thousands of gullible fools for being heathens, whilst constantly encouraging all and sundry to “call now and pledge”, whilst a telephone number flashes on the screen. Yeah right! These people are in business due entirely to the fact that the world is full of morons. Their vast flocks stand mesmerised, with their hands flailing loosely in the air, while their divine orators mentally and financially fleece them. They get called to the front of the gathering and a preacher then proceeds to tap each person on the head. These people, caught up in the spirit of the occasion, proceed to collapse to the floor and writhe uncontrollably.
I once watched a TV documentary that was filmed with hidden cameras. A team of filmmakers milled around outside a massive hall where one of the better-known American evangelists was about to deliver one of his miracle-making sermons. He had a number of scouts infiltrating the vast crowd, asking people what was wrong with them. For instance, an old lady in a wheelchair was asked how long she had been in her wheelchair. “Five years” came the answer. She was then asked if she was able to actually stand up and take a few steps at all. “Just a little” she replied. One of the evangelists’ helpers, standing nearby, inconspicuously radioed this information back to a caravan standing nearby where a list was being compiled of those that could be “cured” and “healed” by “the miracle of god”. During the sermon, which was a highly charged, emotional affair, the evangelist incited the old lady to “stand up and walk”. Obviously, with the massive crowd shouting encouragement, she did just that. What shameful exploitation this is. What kind of evil mind would do this sort of thing to people that are either too stupid or too desperate to know, or want to know, any better? It is a pity that people in desperate need, such as terminally ill people, are also taken advantage of by these unscrupulous thieves. They have absolutely no other alternative and turn to these people in final desperation. They are in need of counselling and assistance and are like lambs to the slaughter. They are looking for encouragement and strength. Make no mistake, there is most definitely a place for our priests, who are able to offer compassion and love when it is needed but it is a pity that the line between caregivers and religious nuts has been so blurred.
Dear Gary,
Your article in the newspaper is just what I needed! It renews my motivation to continue with the Work of the Good News for the rest of my life. It reveals that the Gospel is not only for the needy, but also for the well-off; not just for the ignorant, but also for the pseudo-intellectual. In the Bible, Daniel 12 verse 4 it says that in the last days knowledge will increase; remarkably, it does not say "wisdom." You stand before a high-tech plane in the newspaper photo, but you are yet as failing as mankind ever was. For all your natural modern education and training to fly, etc, you still (together with all atheists) have no answers for immorality, pornography, HIV/Aids, divorce, incest, crime, homosexuality, etc. You dont know what Christianity has really done for the world - you can only hammer on the bad of certain mis-led individuals, or things done during the dark ages when the Catholic church concealed the Scriptures from the people. You fail to mention the "wonderful works" that the likes of Marx and Lennin, Mao, Castro, Mugabe, and co, have done for mankind, etc.
Proverbs (who can refuse some good proverbs?)
1:7 says that "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom."
1: 22 says " fools hate knowledge."
12:15 the way of a fool is right in his own eyes
17:7 a fool does not delight in understanding
18:6 fools are always contentious
20:3 fools always meddle in things they shouldn't
24:7 wisdom is too high for a fool
26:11 like a dog, a fool always goes back to his vomit
We can go on and on. I however commend you for having greater faith than all Christians put together, because to believe there is no God in the midst of such natural evidence takes immense faith! To believe in the THEORY of evolution against there being some "Intelligent Designer" at work in creation, takes great faith.
Your ignorance is truly manifested in that you lomp all religions together, not understanding that Christianity is a life-style and a relationship with God, rather than a dead religion. But then "this knowledge is too high for you!"
Voltaire said on his deathbed, that you can live without God but you cannot die without Him. You boast about your wonderful family. Well done! Just let some calamity befall you, and quickly you will look for God.
Be warned, God is not mocked! The damage that your stupid article has done to the simple believers will earn you some "reward" from God. Mark my words. Remember my email address should you wish to talk sensibly or seek for real answers, rather than poke fun in people who are courageous enough to believe that man is a tri-part being rather than an animal who ceases to exist upon his death. (Or do you believe in re-incarnation?)
You think you achieved anything? You only caused the churches to unite together and press on even more. (Actually your article didn't raise many eyebrows) Your good fortune to be happy and prosperous is not shared by 99.99999% of mankind; your words vaporize in their despair and crisis hour. The miniscule circulation of this newspaper proves how little effect your bigotted opinions count. But then, a fool is bloated in his own impression of his own importance.
Romans 1: 28 "Even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient..." (I bet you have some skeletons in your cupboard???)
1 Timothy 4:1,2 "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron."
2 Timothy 3: 3,4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
John 8:32 "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." v36 "if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life.." ...words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You don't have to be a peasant to believe in a real, living, loving, personal, creator God. Many super-intelectuals and great achievers believe in God, and they are not poorer off for that, in actual fact, it gives reason for this life, and purpose for living. The New Age movement (among others) promotes "NO GOD" but that won't diminish His existence - "me thinks you protest too loudly"!!!???)
(Read: Psalm 10 and 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 if you are truly a sincere person.)
Regards, Kal
Kal, you are like so many other christians out there; you rely heavily on instilling fear into people to try and get them to follow your twisted line of thinking. Most christians make statements like "god-fearing", or as you so quaintly put it "be warned, god is not mocked!" and so on, purely to try and frighten people. Telling people that they will be thrown into a boiling pit of molten lava for all eternity if they "do not believe" is juvenile and irresponsible. Stop scaring the wits out of your children and whoever else may care to listen to your mindless drivel Kal. You go right ahead though and spend your life preparing to die, I'll spend mine living rather.
Hi Gary,
It might be smart to have a personal blog and have similar-minded aimless people patting you on the back, and then you respond with silly meaningless smart-alec chirps.
Christians (I mean real ones not plain religious folks) do a lot of living - not for one self but for others, and not to boast about it in the press. Jesus called these people hypocrates! They were religious just like you in your own persuation. We at least have goals beyond the now, which gives tremendous peace. Atheists have no long-term plans, and its terrible if life were to deal them a bad hand. You of course can stand behind your philosophy and claim it has brought you prosperity; what do destitute un-believers claim as the reason for their "success?" Then God would automatically get the blame - ACT OF GOD, I suppose.
You seem to be a good person; from what source do you claim to have derived your morality and value system? If you look well, you will note that they come originally from the Scriptures; no other writings lays down the propper way to live, to conduct business, how to bring up kids, how to behave yourself in public and private, how to maintain a good marriage, how to regard community leaders, how to be successful financially, how to sort out personal moral issues, etc, etc. Its not just RELIGION! Its life.
Smart guy, what shall your end be if your life was to be required from you this night? How shall you escape if you neglect this great salvation that is being offered to you?
Lets ask some questions - By which laws does your craft stay aloft?Then why does the bumblebee continue to fly in spite of the fact that the law of aerodynamics says it should not be able to do so? Why do some planets rotate in the reverse direction, contrary to the big bang theory? Why was the comic dust on the moon found to only be 100 mm thick instead of 3 meters as per the so called age of the universe? Why is the universe and creation constantly improving when the man-determined 3rd (?) Law of Thermodynamics states that anything left to itself with tend to decay and degenerate in stead of improve? Why is the intelligence and capability gap between us (some of us) and our nearest "relative" so vast, while there are only a miniscule (I think 3 points) difference in our DNA?
You will have a go at defending these questions, but by some other person's theories rather than proven facts. Without God in the equation many things remain un-answered. Here's another - Where do you think UFO's come from? Hmmm?
Nice chat.
Kal
Hi Kal
I don't believe in UFO's either. They have always been sighted by people who really cannot prove the sighting. In this day and age, with a video camera in virtually every cellphone, don't you find that odd? People believed in UFO's before because people had to rely on what other people claimed. That is now no longer the case, almost everyone has a cellphone with a camera in it. Since that has happened, the so-called UFO "sightings" have slowly dried up.
Also, a number of you have stated that I seem to have it all, and that I will surely fall one day, almost as if you hope I do. The fact is that my wife and I work damned hard for the bit that we do have, and things are sometimes very tough indeed. I am not flaunting and strutting merely because I have done so well, as some of you intimate. My goodness, we have been through some testing trials over the years. We also lost an unborn child. I am a humble person Kal. Just because I am outspoken about my views does not make me arrogant. I do have very concise, direct statements, but that is merely because I do not believe in skirting issues. Say it out loud I say. There will always be those that do not agree with me but that is normal. My letter to the Weekend Post was merely my stating what many others have wanted to say for ages.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
Yo Gary,
Your points are good… however, unless one first establishes whether the Bible is what it claims to be or not, there is no common foundation for debate (e.g. Phil quoting Corinthians when you don’t even believe in Corinthians…) all the debate is on a hiding to nothing…. Pointless and a waste of energy…
One needs to first establish whether the Bible is worth believing – not based on opinion because that’s the easiest way out, but on some solid research…
If you are REALLY interested, you need to read a book called “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by a chap called Josh McDowell. There is also his follow up called “More Evidence that Demands a Verdict” He used to write the way you’ve just written to the Weekend Post…
At the end of reading these books objectively and with an open mind (dropping all preconceived thoughts and opinions), one needs to make a judgement call… and I promise you, you will have to make a judgement call because the evidence is utterly impressive… but it is a personal thing… that’s the wonder of it all…
(it’s always amazed me as to how it is or why it is that so many people – real scholars – who have properly set out to research in detail whether the Bible is true or not, initially intending to prove that it contradicts itself, have actually become Christians through that process….. makes one think…. Furthermore, there are more and more scientists who are turning to Christianity today, despite their modern research with modern technology.. the “more they find out the less they know” syndrome I guess…)
At the end of the day just as much as you say there is no God, others are just as entitled to say there is a God.
Faith is a personal thing but when it gets shoved down people’s throats as a doctrine, saying that EVERYONE must believe a certain way, that is where fundamentalism creeps in and that is where the nutters go nuts and do things in the name of their faith that those scriptures supporting their faith NEVER mention or encourage!! So there is often nothing wrong with the faith… it’s the human interpretation by leaders who hoodwink followers because of an ego or some other agenda and often those followers know very little, have never studied, operate on hearsay and actually don’t really know what they are talking about or acting on… That is why there is so much trouble in the world because of religion….
PS I have my beliefs and I generally choose keep them to myself…. And I have utter respect for those who don’t believe in a God because they have more faith than me to believe that all this around us just sommer materialised out of nowhere in perfect balance until man stuffed it all up… there is simply nothing that mankind has done that is good for this planet…. The good things are now to try and fix up the messes… read Joel Kovell’s “The Enemy of Nature”.
Greetings Jonathan
I know that my statements piss people off, especially people that are truly religious. I don't mean to be blasphemous though, I am merely trying to get someone to explain to me why they believe that there is a chap called god, with a son called Jesus, and they sit in the sky and every Christian on the planet has a personal chat with them every day. Saying that there is no way we could have just 'happened' here does not give our creator a name and a face. We have no idea why we are here, or who or what put us here. Christians though will tell me that they "have a personal relationship with god" and that they have "personal conversations with god" and so on. What utter twaddle! Studying the bible, or the Koran, or whatever other book there is does not mean that there is a chap called god living in the sky. Nobody knows where we came from, it is an absolute mystery. Every creature on earth is so refined as to be an absolute work of art. Look at the cockroach, spider, snake, human, dolphin, whatever, they are all absolutely amazing, but who or what created them? Hell, I wish I knew. Saying to me "but Gary, merely believe, and all will be well, that will answer all your questions" does not work for me. Is our entire universe merely a science project in some other massive world? Could be you know.
However, people that prefer to suspend belief and merely believe in something blindly, because it gives them comfort and direction, well I have no problem with that. It is just that I am unable to do the same.
BTW: I am currently reading "The Jesus Papers (The Greatest Cover-up in History)" by Michael Baigent. He has a master of arts degree in mysticism and religious experience and he pretty much debunks all of the main beliefs in the bible.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
Hi Gary
I have just read your blog following the letter in the Weekend Post. Well done! We need the message to get to more people and further the wave of reasonable thinkers, to eradicate the world of all religion.
What always amazes me is how people in this day and age can be so superstitious as to believe that a god brings rain, drought, sun light, rainbows, plagues, diseases, etc. when we all know for a fact that these things are acts of nature. They follow the laws of science, not the laws of some mystic character and can't be altered just because some person wails at the sky.
I generally do not engage discussion with christians as all they can do is sprout bible verses to prove the existence of their god, and are generally too narrow minded to even consider ones views even though based on scientific facts. They rather believe fairy stories told to children when they asked their parents "where do we come from and where are we going?"
Anyway I am 'preaching' to the converted so I'll stop and say once again, well done!
Regards,Brian
Sir,
I have no problem with you on your views as a free thinker, as it is not my concern. But I find it strange that you spend time and energy to read and to write about your obvious irretation with Christians and religion. Not to mention half a page, complete with a photograph (Weekend Post 30 June 07) Why don’t you just ignore it? I have no interest in sport or celebrity gossip. Thus I just ignore and skip any writings on Paris Hilton, Luke Watson or things that I find 'too much' , issues which are impossible to miss in the press.
Gary you call yourself a free thinker. I am challenging you to develop an enquiring mind. I am not going to tire you with Bible scripture but offer you two matters ponder about.
1 How did this physical universe, including our planet and life on it, come to existence? Maybe there are two answers. Either by chance/ spontaneous/ with a big bang. Or: it was all purposefully designed by a pre-existent Being who we call God. There are a majority of scientists and physicists who believe there must be someone behind it all. To mention a few: Paul Davies (The Mind of God, Accidental Universe) the Nobel prize winner Steven Weinberg (“The First Three Minutes”) Louw Alberts with his readable book “Christianity and the Enquiring Mind”, to mention only a few.
According to Alberts education in science and physics are not only concerned with the ‘how’ but also with the ‘where from’ and the ‘where to’. Due to limited space just a few facts: There is a vast network of factors necessary to provide the correct materials and energy resources in order for a planet to come into existence. Disturb one force even slightly in strength and the network becomes distorted, meaning that a master mind was behind it all. There are in nature a number of physical constants designated such as: The mass of electrons which are the particles moving around the positive nuclei of atoms; the velocity of light in vacuum; energy and gravity. If such constants did not have the precise values they have and did not stand in relation to one another (size), life on this planet could not have taken place. Thinking of chromosomes and DNA in the human body and other species, is another topic too complicated to discuss here.
2 Proof of a Devine Creator watching over us. I am quoting you: “There is no proof at all of anyone watching over us, and if there were, who and what it is. Who placed us here.” I will not quote the Bible seeing that it is nonsence to you. But I can be a witness. . Due to the lack of space, I will mention one particular experience from many other : Six years ago my daughter and her baby lived with us. Apparently he baby contaminated TB from our char who died a few month later. The baby was also suffering from severe ecsema since the age of 5 months which did not respond to any of the diets, lotions and medicines prescribed. One paricular weekend the baby then aged 18 months, was severely sick, was vomiting and was not able to keep in liquids or food despite medication for three days. Arrangements were made to have the TB test done on the Monday morning. After twelve that Sunday night my daughter called me anxiously that the baby was dying. One look at the baby convinced me that she desperately needed hospitalization. White as a sheet, limp, with eyes partly open, she weakly vomited more slime. We dressed quickly and as we prepared to go, I said to my daughter: “Let us first give her to the Lord in prayer.” In the same way as in my daily walk in the Lord, I prayed in all earnest a prayer : “Dear Lord, we trust this baby in your hands tonight. We ask that you will heal her completely, and that this healing will be to the glorification of your Name and your Kingdom. Amen.” Seconds later the limp little body moved, the eyes got lively and with her old usual brightness,. Smiling she wobble from one to the other, color flowing to the pale cheacks We decided that it would be silly to drive all the way from Beachview to Livingston Hospital with a bouncing and smiling baby. We slept in track suits, incase we need to go. . She slept peacefully, right through the night, The next day she had her Soya milk without any trace of nausea or vomiting. Since that day the cough and mucus gone and the ecsema by the Wednesday. We immediately put her on a normal diet and she is healthy with rosy cheacks till this day.
There is only one explanation. No illness like this can be healed spontaneously within seconds. I don’t pretend to be a miracle healer. But I believe that the power of this healing, came from our heavenly Father and not by me or any other power. I can witness of several personal Devine experiences through my daily walk with God through Jesus Christ. We all know how a person can imagine him- or herself as well or not well., but it is not possible for an 18 month old baby to imagine herself as sick or cured.
Unfortunately many Christians are only traditional Christians because they were christened as babies. Have never seeked God or a personal relationship with Him Therefore “most of the world’s problems stem from religious issues’ as you put it, because there is a carnal entity in the worldly “Christianity’, without becoming a born-again person and separated from ‘issues’ of the world. I wish you could practice a bit of tolerance and love toward all people, (even to the Christians you dislike) because they only defend their believe in Christ. Christians may irritate you but they are no threat to you, and definitely do not force you to their believes or ways. We can force anyone to believe and think the way 'we' do. So let the Christians be, don't read their writings if it gives you a pain.
You might blame me for writing, but you envited me to respond. My response is only my witnessing to you and not an attack on you.
Regards, Hettie
Hi Hettie
You sound like a truly wonderful person, and the sort of person I would accept as a personal friend. In your writing you show compassion, trust, love, tolerance, and many other lovely qualities. Hettie, my aim is not to try and trample on the very real beliefs of decent people, not at all. I have a particularly direct manner of talking (and writing) and it unfortunately gives people the wrong impression of me. I am actually a very gentle soul, and generous to the point of affecting me financially. If you strongly believe that you are personally involved in a relationship with your God, please leave it that way. It seems to be what comforts you, and gives you peace. Whether or not your belief is merely a figment of your imagination, or completely real, does not matter to anyone. It is what you believe.
I on the other hand have a suspicious and inquiring mind. At present we have only two theories; the creation theory, and the big bang theory. I believe neither. I do though strongly believe (and understand) that something must have put us here. I merely state that I have not the foggiest idea what. That is all I say. Why are there millions (that we can see) of empty planets out there? Why do almost all creatures on earth have eyes to see, and there is a sun to provide light, for those eyes to work? Each and every creature from the cockroach to the whale are all absolutely fantastic, complex creatures. Who made them? I don't know.
When my wife and I lost our unborn son, why did that happen? I don't know. My two children are now 16 and 9. They are both lovely looking children, clever, and just the nicest darn people I have ever known. Am I just lucky? Probably. They certainly didn't inherit my brains because I am not the cleverest person I know. I actually admit to being clueless. The thing is though, I admit that I am clueless.
Christians though say they have the answer. They say that Jesus was the son of God and that that is all we have to know and believe. God made everything. If that is the case, then who made God? Where was the real beginning? Again, I don't know.
My letter to the Weekend Post was because I am fed up with the patronising attitude of Christians. When I sit down for supper with people I don't know, and they suddenly are holding my hands and praying before eating, I get irritated. When people bible-punch, I get fed up. When letters to the papers contain endless, mindless, quotes, I get irritated beyond belief. When people try to attribute each and every bowel movement to "an act of God" I get annoyed. I merely state again; We have no idea why we are here, or who or what put us here. I just cannot bring myself to pretend that I do know.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
On Saturday July 7 the Weekend Post ran a full page spread on this subject. I was very pleased with the nice balance given by the editor and there were letters for and against, but mostly well written and polite. The only one that personally irked me was the one from John Preller who spoke of my "cry for help". Oh grow up Preller. Don't patronise me please. Here are some more responses received.
Hi Gary
I don't have any response yet, from my letter, but this is what happened this morning. As I was praying this thought came into my head. Perhaps more mature Christians would say, God spoke to me. I'm not comfortable with that terminology yet.
What if, when you give your life to Christ genuinely, it is like a key that unlocks part of your brain that was always there, but never used. (That's why you guys don't get it). We know there are different parts of the brain used for speech, co-ordination, feelings etc. Scientists say we also only use, I think 10%. That compartment is there, but not used. The human body is a miracle in itself, how everything works so perfectly is beyond us. No one can duplicate it, from nothing. Yes with DNA, but you need DNA first.
To continue: Once the compartment is activated it needs work to allow it, to continue to grow. Like an elite athlete. How hard you have to train to increase muscle growth, to increase speed etc. you stress your muscles and break down muscle tissue, and it grows back stronger and enables you to perform better. If an elite athelete doesn't train the muscles etc. become flaccid or slack and then you cannot keep up an elite performance. Who knows how many potential elite athletes, chose to be couch potatoes? The potential is there in all of us, but we do have a choice whether we want to train that hard or not?
Anyway as we read the word of God, our compartment in the brain gets active and grows the more information we put in it, and that is why sometimes we read something, that we have read before, but suddenly the meaning is very clear. It also explains why some Christians never grow. They think Church every Sunday is enough. Like anything, the time you spend on something, is the result. Gary Player said, "The more I practice, the luckier I get."
You may discard this like everything else, but please print this, it may not be for you, but for someone else. It seems you guys aren't willing to take a chance with the key. Perhaps you're afraid, of what might be revealed to you. Or much worse, imagine having to eat humble pie. The chances of the free-thinkers doing that is very slim, as they are usually very proud, so sure of themselves, and usually have "the gift of the gab," How do you like that generalization? You would have to start by forgiving the Church or whoever is was that scarred you so badly, to turn you against Christians and our beliefs. I have done the best I know how, to show you that Our God is the one true God, and perhaps some possible answers to your questions. I shall still pray for you and your family everyday.
Anyway, I trust God and know "All things work to the good, of those who love the Lord," even persecution. Take your best shot! "No weapon formed against me shall prosper." Some of your "mindless words strung together."
Believe it or not, I am still
A Concerned Friend
Janette sent me an email before this one, which was extremely long so I won't publish it here.
Hi Janette
Whew! I cannot possibly respond to all of your statements, your letter was indeed very laborious, although well meaning. Janette, like almost all of the responses I have received that most definitely do not agree with me, you seem like a decent person, you really do. In your letter you do attack me here and there but I do not believe you are doing it in some sort of antagonistic way at all. I believe you are a nice person, but obviously with very strong beliefs. I have run through your very long letter and will take just a few quotes from it and then respond only to those, otherwise we will be here forever and, as you say, I will not be here forever, even though you apparently will.
Anyway, I trust God and know "All things work to the good, of those who love the Lord," even persecution. Take your best shot! "No weapon formed against me shall prosper." Some of your "mindless words strung together."
Nobody is trying to attack you personally Janette, and I most certainly am not going to "take my best shot" at you, most definitely not. If I am opposed to the Christian belief, or even merely do not believe in it, I am not trying to attack you.
What if, by some miracle, you are wrong. Is it possible? Do you accept that you could be wrong? or are you just another arrogant person who believes they could never be wrong, that I am wasting time on? What if there is a God and you have just wiped your family out. You are going to hell, with your family forever. How are you going to explain your way out of that?
Janette, I have stated all along that I do not know what or who put us here. And even if this god that you believe in is the sort of god that would "wipe my family out" merely because I raise valid questions well then, you can keep that god of yours. I want no part of it. Keep him all to yourself Janette. This statement of yours confirms that most christians worship some perceived being - just in case! You too have obviously been badly brainwashed into actually fearing for you life, and the lives of your children, unless you worship this fictitious being. How sad.
I know of miracles of healing of documented terminal cases of cancer, brain tumours etc. What is your answer? The answer of the people involved in these cases personally, give the glory to God. But there is no God, Gary Wiblin and co. say???
My good friend, Brian Jones, has been in a wheelchair for about 20 years now. He is paralysed from the neck down, all because he played one game of rugby too many. Was that a crime? He was (and is) always the nicest chap around, yet he has had to spend his life completely paralysed. People like you need to stop promising ridiculous promises to desperate people, they are the ones that are suffering Janette, and your empty promises are cruel.
We just wasted some of our time "chanting to the sky." So What! What if you are wrong, you miss the boat like in Noah's day. How many people wanted to get on the boat when the floods came. They didn't believe, because they had never seen rain before, water came up from the ground, but never from the sky. " We believe now, let us on the boat." The Bible states God closed the doors.TOO LATE!
Janette, scientists have also shown that there is not enough water on the planet to produce a flood of the proportions described in the bible. It's merely yet another tall story. It is similar to the stories of father christmas and the tooth fairy. You really need to release yourself from these scary old fables and face reality rather.
Good news for Christians is, we will meet our lost loved ones again. Like your baby you lost, and ours. They are in heaven waiting. Are you going to orphan the child you lost on earth? Read the Bible, the answers are there and will be revealed to the believer
Here I need to caution you against convincing gullible people that they will meet all of their long-lost loved ones when they die Janette. It cannot possibly work. Imagine, if you will, the chap that marries, stays that way for many years, and then his wife dies. Even though they have a few children, he eventually remarries, and has a few more children. Then the unthinkable (but not unusual) happens, and she dies too. He then marries yet again, after a few years (like Larry King?), and has another young one. If they now all go to this cool heaven place, where everything is perfect, who is going to meet the chap as he arrives in heaven? Will they all just be happy? Will such a man then merely live with all three wives? Will each of them be happy with that arrangement? What if we are talking ex-wives and illegitimate children? Then What? Will the whole lot all just sit on a cloud and play a bunch of harps? Think logically Janette. Logistically, it is impossible for there to be an afterlife, and quite honestly, why would you want one? Are you so insecure that you need to convince yourself that you will live forever? Do you know how long forever is? Get real Janette.
There are no rules and you can enjoy your own selfish life
Janette, I am most definitely not selfish. My wife and I have done so much for charity and, if you have doubts, I will email photographs and emails from organisations that we have assisted, out of our own free will. There are also too many times that I unfortunately have no proof that I have assisted those less fortunate than we are. Do not presume we are assholes just because you may be.
For those in ignorance of the future. Short version: Christ is returning to fetch us Christians. All the others will be left behind here on earth and the Anti-Christ will rule. He will look like a man of peace, but after 3 and a half years, he will show his true colours.
A few years ago there were a few manic morons that all committed suicide with poison, they were all wearing Nike shoes, or whatever. These now dead people had convinced themselves that they were on their way to a better place, and they had to commit suicide to do it. There have been a great many other cases too where people, normal people, have convinced themselves that they are about to be "fetched" and taken to heaven. I will say it once again Janette, people are convinced, from babies, to believe in all sorts of nonsense and most people fall for it. You are yet another statistic.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
Dear Gary
Great letter !
Couldnt agree with you more.
Its great to see how many people out there are free thinkers and not sheep (in their flocks) hee hee.
Ive been trying to get onto your blog site and its obviously choka blok with responses.
I think that you have really started something big and its gonna be fun.
Its crazy that people actually hold so much faith in the “Basic instructions before leaving earth”.
Anyway you are probably tired of all the letters so ill be off.
Look forward to the aftermath and will soon be on your blogs.
With respect
Neil
Hi Gary,
Well done on presenting the Port Elizabeth public with an important alternative viewpoint that stands in contrast to the superstition that goes by the name of religion.
I believe in the need to defend the values of the Enlightenment at a time when religious obscurantism is enveloping large parts of the planet.
Regards,
Chuck
Hi Gary
I just want to compliment you on your letter that appeared in the Weekend Post. As convinced as one is, of one's beliefs, it still takes a lot to "put yourself out there", and walk the talk in public - well done. The non-religious stance needs to get a fair hearing, so that people can see that there is an alternative to dogmatic, religious mumbo-jumbo. Letters of your type are hopefully raising the consciousness of the public, and I get the feeling that the secular "movement" is gaining ground and respectability around the world. Having said that, atheists are still seen as the 'devil incarnate' in the eyes of many.
I "saw the light" only fairly recently, having dabbled around in agnosticism for a decade or two. Earlier this year, I came across Richard Dawkins (not in person, but on the book shelves!) and this led to websites and secular blogs on the internet that provided me with so much information, I had no idea was out there. Dawkins obviously specialises in evolution, so the creationism / evolution topic has dominated most of my reading till now. I've also read quite a lot of Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens on the web - some brilliant debates and arguments from these guys!
I recently attended the Seminar on Spirituality that George Irvine hosted at Collegiate high school, and contacted Chuck Volpe the next day. We chatted then and have corresponded by email since. I thought that he was slandered by Raymond Hartle, when Hartle article referred to Chuck as new-ager, and so wrote to the Weekend Post emphasising that new-age is completely opposite to secularism. The letter appeared in the Post a few weeks ago. To do that, I really had to get out of my comfort zone, but I feel so strongly that much of faith-based religion is damaging the world, that it is vital to say something about it.
Chuck referred me to the American Council for secular humanism at http://www.secularhumanism.org/ - you are probably already familiar with it, and thought that it would be a worthwhile idea to get a secular society going.
Anyway, congrats again on saying something that needed saying!
Regards
Kenny
Gary offers his family no hope beyond this life and so “eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you will die” for ever. That’s so sad when a faith based on logic and God’s word can give all of us a reason for a meaningful life now and beyond.
Atheism and evolution offer a way out for not believing in a God but it requires a much greater leap if faith to believe in such nonsense compared to the tried and tested power of God’s word – ”in the last days scoffers will come!”
Psalm 14, "The fool has said in his heart there is no God."
The origin of life is unknown to science. The Law of Biogenesis (Cell theory) observes that life only comes from life today. Louis Pasteur showed scientifically that life does not come from non-living stuff. Natural selection, the supposed mechanism of evolution, can only select from existing characteristics and slight variations of those through new gene combinations. It does not produce any new genetic material.
Mutations, said to be the source of new genetic material, are harmful to life and often lethal. Deliberately induced mutations in over 3,000 consecutive generations of fruit flies have failed to produce a better fruit fly, increase its viability, or create a new species of fly.
All known species (several million) appear fully developed with all vital organs fully operational. There are no part-formed eyes, half-developed intestines, half a brain or newly forming feathers in the process of evolution.
Each human brain contains about 100,000,000,000,000 (100 trillion) electrical connections, complexity that could not possibly develop by random chance.
Many animals possess sophisticated equipment that cannot have accidentally have happened! The radar system of bats, the sonar of whales and dolphins, the electro detection system of the platypus, the aerodynamics of hummingbirds, the magnetic navigation system of many birds and turtles, the adhesion mechanism of Gecko feet, and the amazing self-repair system of most forms of life. Such sophisticated mechanisms required a super intelligence who designed them.
The genetic code in every form of life is a precise set of information for the development and activity of that form of life, accompanied by elaborate transmission and duplications systems, without which life would cease. This complexity cannot be accounted for by chance, but testifies to intelligent design in every form of life.
Amino acids formed synthetically are either right-handed or left-handed. The amino acids in all forms of life are left-handed, without exception, clear evidence of intelligent selection and design.
Symbiosis, the interdependence of two forms of life: such as the fig tree and the fig-gall wasp, the yucca plant and Pronuba moth, pollen plants and the bee, each dependent for life upon the other, must have been formed complete and very complex at the same time. An insult to our intelligence that is was by chance!
The so called “missing link” between one form of life and another requires many millions of missing links if a slow evolutionary process did take place.
The missing links are still missing! Some evolutionists have replaced Darwin’s “slow change over time” with “punctuated equilibrium” (rapid change in short periods) to coordinate the fossil records. For punctuated equilibrium to occur, the millions of positive mutations that evolution depends on, would now have to happen over a much shorted period of time!
Biochemical reactions are very complex and require many different enzymes that all come from different genes. For these reactions to have evolved, all these enzymes must have evolved together at the same time! Hopelessly impossible for any one reaction; totally impossible for all the complex, multi-step reactions that occur in so many organisms at the same time.
Free thinkers – please think again and will continue to pray for your enlightenment and humility to see a better way.
Michael
Hi Michael
Your email is very interesting, it really is. You have obviously spent some time studying the subject and it shows. Yet again though, yours is a letter basically saying that, since we have no idea what or who put us here, let us invent a fictitious being and then worship and idolise that being. What for? You have no idea if there is actually anyone out there listening to you, so why spend so much time talking to the air, just in case? In my responses to everyone else I continually acknowledge that there must surely be something or someone that planned all this, but who? Or what?
Let us merely accept though, for the sake of argument, that there is indeed one male, who lives somewhere in the sky, and that this one male manufactured everything as we know it. Would this one male demand that his creations absolutely worship and idolise him, their every waking moment? Why would this god demand, or expect, that? Also, if there is just one god that made everything, where did he come from? Who made him? Since you believe that everything must be made by someone, who made god then?
The fact of the matter though is that, no matter how many degrees you may have, or how clever you may be, you have absolutely no idea why we are here. Nobody knows. This whole religious thing is all about just one thing, and one thing only - people are terrified of dying and there then being nothing. Most people need the assurance of an afterlife, or they plain cannot function. Why do people dread dying so much? When you are dead, you are dead. You won't even know it. Just like you were not worried about not being here for all the thousands of years before now, because you never existed. After you die, you will once again just not exist. All you can hope for is to leave a legacy.
All the emails I have received from christians have all had a similar angle - christians are all petrified of dying. They cannot bear the thought and therefore spend their lives in church, all trying to convince each other that they will never die.
I have personally lived my life in a way that, should I lie on my deathbed tonight, I will die at peace. I have literally tried everything. I have never been financially successful but I have made my life very interesting and even now, at the age of 45, just recently started a career as an airline pilot. It's just another thing I wanted to do. It is yet another thing in a long line of things that I have taken on, just for the fun and the challenge of it. As I said to a previous writer, I live my life, I do not spend it preparing to die.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
Dear Gary
I will say your arguments are quite logical and will admit I have also thought along much the same lines. However I still lean towards the religious side though, I suppose forty odd years of “brainwashing” doesn’t fade easily. But, just to throw another poker into the fire, have you thought about what would happen to society if it were announced tomorrow that there is definitely no God, no afterlife, that the whole thing was a huge misunderstanding – sorry it was well-intentioned etc, etc. After the initial gnashing of teeth, run on the church for refunds and general spates of depression, would society cope?
Is society ready and capable of compassion toward our fellow man without the threat of “hellfire” and “eternal damnation” as a deterrent? Will we be able to restrain ourselves, knowing that this is it? Certainly there are many who would, but I fear that there will, for a time at least be complete upheaval and chaos. Mankind, I believe is not ready to assume responsibility and act in a manner that would not plunge us into barbarism. Sadly it appears we still need some sort of supernatural mega-power to keep us from ourselves.
Even if it is only a restraint, I believe mankind still needs religious mystery. Perhaps when the day comes that we don’t deed it, we will have discovered God.
Kevin O' Connor
This letter has so far been the most reasonable letter I have received from a christian. Kevin makes a very valid point. I have also always believed that the most compelling reason to actually have religion is to give people direction and, in many cases, actually keep them under control.
I received a very long letter from one Tim, which I have shortened somewhat, to make it easier reading. Enjoy!
I have always enjoyed Gary Wiblin's letters to our local newspapers, and I suspect that it has a bit to do with what some readers touched on in their letters. Allow me to illustrate:
'K' writes that he/she is "…so chuffed to finally discover that there is at least one genuine intellectual in PE", while Errol says that it is "…a pity that free thinkers are a vast minority."
I have, on many occasions, encountered the Backlash mentality here in PE, and the letters pages of the local papers are full of it. My mind boggles at all these Christians who get so worked up over what someone like Gary Wiblin writes. You can pray for me if you wish. It
will do no good. In your eyes I am dammed to a pit of fire. You are talking about that most intimate of all things: my own death. Now I have several choices regarding my feelings and thoughts on my death. I can read a book written by God, you tell me, 2000 years ago. I happen to believe this book was written by men. (No surprise that Christianity is such a patriarchal religion.) Call me closed-minded if you wish. I can also believe, like some Hindus, that God is a blue elephant and a chick with lots of arms. It would certainly be a whole lot more fun than the Christian notion of things, fire and plagues of locusts and poisonous frogs and all. Call me unadventurous, but I'll go for the chick with the arms. Sounds kinky...
Or… I could go to someone who actually KNOWS something about death, who has researched death her whole life, who has been with more than 4000 people in total, while they are dying, held their hands, looked into their eyes. Someone who has interviewed more than 300 people who have been clinically dead for sometimes up to 20 minutes, and been brought back to life on the operating table. I could read what this woman says, or I could listen to some self-important fool wearing the mask of obsequious humility every Sunday while he collects my money and talks of this lake of fire that no dead person has ever seen!
You place your bets, people. I'll place mine. All I know is I have one life, that is all, and I ain't going to waste it on some religion that invents this nonsense about hell and then presto! Sets itself up as the only way out. Brilliant when you think of it. Beyond the
wildest dreams of even the most machiavellian of CEOs and politicians! In fact, the smartest business strategy ever devised. See how rich the churches are, from the Catholics all the way down to the happy clappies. Also, I believe, the most wicked strategy ever foisted upon humanity.
But gradually it will die out. As society evolves, the power of the Christian churches will wither. Look at Europe: 14% of people attend church. In the Scandinavian countries, it is even lower. You could say the church is dead there. Here it is very strong. More than 60% attend church. And what do we have here? The highest rape statistics in the world, even babies being raped, the 2nd highest murder rate, the greatest disparity of wealth, naked, undisguised greed for material baubles and nick-nacks, rampant corruption and theft from the public purse, the overwhelming belief that violence is the best solution to a problem…I could go on, but now let us look to the Godless Liberal Scandinavian countries, and what do we see? Mmm…I see in the Time magazine that Norway is the safest country on earth. We really should be praying for them. The poor lost souls. They must be so unhappy. I see that Sweden gives more per capita to the third world than any other country, and that they were the only first world country to help in any meaningful way throughout the liberation struggle to overthrow apartheid. I see they also have the most advanced social welfare
programmes in the world. All mighty…Christian of them, isn't it? And America? Well, they're a bit like us aren't they? The highest murder rate of any first world country, obsessed with guns, involved, covertly, in almost every conflict from the 2nd world war onwards, usually on the side of some brutal 3rd world dictator who they know will look after their business interests and squash any nasty labour unions. And let us not start on what they are up to in the middle East…
No, my Christian friends. No. I will never again believe the gobbledegook you propagate, and I curse the years of my childhood spent living with the fear of sin and hell. I think you are guilty of crimes against humanity when you indoctrinate small children with this rubbish, and I feel my heart lift a little bit when I read that Mr Wiblin's children are not being subjected to this horror.
Furthermore, if god is in all places at all times, that would mean he is constantly in the Go-Go Lounge in Heugh Road! Perhaps some of these so-called Christians would care to explain to us WHAT in the DEVIL'S NAME he is DOING THERE?!?
Tim
Dear Gary
Here we are again! Are you ready for this extemely turbulant flight. Fasten your seatbelt very tight. We will be flying at a VERY LOW altitude and oxygen, may be needed. Ready, here we go!
Thank you for your printing my second letter in full. Bless you for that. (I genuinely mean that) Let us now see if you are BRAVE enough to print this one, WITHOUT any clever edits and manipulations. (**"God blesses you, when you are MOCKED and persecuted and lied about, because you are my followers."**) Thank you for that blessing Gary.
Really Gary, how can we debate this WITHOUT all the facts and reasonable explainations I gave you, to most of the questions, in this debate. I warned you, I was thorough. I cross-reference everything. I made some very valid arguments and points, which you chose to ignore like, childlike faith. (**"Thank you Father, for hiding the truth, from those who think themselves so WISE AND CLEVER, and for revealing it, to the CHILDLIKE."**) You used my Father Christmas comparison and twisted it around, to use against the point I made in detail, TRYING to get YOU to understand. NOT, nice Gary!
Also I explained how God inspired man, to pen Bible, comments on Bible Prophecys, Testimonials of Muslims converting to Christianity etc. etc. There is evidence in prophecys, etc. which you just ignore and discard. Gary you also omitted to answer, important questions like, have you READ the Bible etc, If you want to write a book review, you have to READ the book.(Whether you believe the story in the book or not.) You can't comment without you OWN knowledge, except by heresay. Also your explanation for using the word "criminal" in your description of Christian parents etc. etc. Amazing SELECTIVE replies.
You start your letter to Christians stating, that you are not attacking us personally, then immediately, you contradict yourself. What about that, CRIMINAL LABEL, and "ASS---" and all the others? How is it that you get to slam people for patronizing you, but yet, you do it. You asked everyone to keep it NICE, surely that should INCLUDE YOU TOO? I am NOT attacking you at all, I am merely asking for explainations, to what YOU wrote. You twist things to suit yourself. It's no wonder your wife doesn't argue with you. Shame on you, Gary!
Gary, I also know people in wheelchairs etc. Why do you PRESUME I offer them healing, I don't know anyone who does. I DIDN'T ask for an explaination of THEM anyhow, but for an explaination for those that HAVE ALREADY BEEN healed and give the glory to God, of their OWN experience. Are they disillusional or what? THEY had the experience (some WERE paralysed.) Why do you only see, what you WANT to, only so you can give a SMART COMMENT, that really has nothing to do with the question ACTUALLY ASKED?
I don't ever recall being afraid of dying, and don't know anyone who is. (I was part of the group that started bungy jumping in S.A.) and NON were afraid, Christians or not. I've also been in "Perfect Storm" conditions on a cat. and light aeroplane scenarios. Why are you so PRESUMPTUOUS, Gary? Just because you were brainwashed doesn't mean EVERYONE else was. Don't put all your hangups on us. Now stop using the SAME excuses for OUR Christianity, it ISN'T TRUE and it is getting old, see if you can find ANOTHER EXCUSE, since you seem to know, our own personal experiences better, than we know ourselves.
(**"God has not given us a spirit of fear."**)Fear is from Satan. (More, omitted and not commented on, by you.)
It seems this is NOT a debate at all. It is CONTROLLED by you and people (your followers) are only FED the information, that YOU want them to know, (talk about sheep) which is really a pity, I thought we could all learn something, me included. Like I told you before, I don't have all the answers, but I'd be happy to try and find them.
The second letter that was printed doesn't really make sense, without the first, but you're the Captain, I am just a passenger and POWERLESS in the cockpit. It also makes me wonder, how many other letters that ask tough questions, are just being discarded.
Your excuse would probably be, "It was too long and, or, boring," Yeah! Right.
More mature Christians warned me, that answering you would be like, "throwing pearls to the swine," (**"Don't give what is HOLY to the Unholy, they will trample the pearls and turn round and ATTACK you."**) Gary, how PREDICTABLE you are.
But, unfortunately for me, I still care and I don't want anyone, to be deceived by anyone or anything.
As we learnt in Surf-lifesaving sometimes the sea is torrid especially at spring tide and dangerous rip currents etc. can occurr. If someone is drowning, will you try to SAVE them, or just watch them DROWN? (Before you twist this, Gary, it is a comparison, don't know if you can work it out.)
If you haven't read the Bible yourself, you don't qualify to comment on its content. (Which I explained as well). AND obviously YOU DON'T, because that EXACT question, about "the wives and husbands in eternity," IS ASKED and answered.
It was asked by Jews, that did not believe in eternal life, the answer was, (**"Your problem is you DON'T KNOW the scriptures and POWER of GOD. For when the dead rise they WON'T be married."**) You are showing your ignorance, Gary. Isn't it amazing how "words just strung together," make such perfect sense now! in every answer from the Bible that I give you, or don't you see that, either?
Gary, as for those that committed suicide. Suicide is condemned in the Bible and also warns, (**" take heed that no man DECEIVE you, many will come in my name and do miracles."**) and (**"my people PERISH, through LACK of KNOWLEDGE"** ) and (**"NO MAN knows the day, or hour of my return."**) etc. If these people knew their Bible, they COULD NOT have been deceived by this lunatic. That is why it is important to KNOW Gods Word. And who really knows, mabe they were all on drugs, or something.
My sisters, sister-in-law went thru' something similar and had to spend time in Falconberg, where it was determined that her brain was lacking certain chemicals to function properly. She has to be on medications for the rest of her life to function properly. I believe any normal functioning adult could not be seduced into such folly, anyway.
Gary, I was not BRAINWASHED by anyone, (that excuse is getting old), it was a free choice, which I researched mostly ALONE and if you would have printed the whole first letter, everyone would have seen that too. You chose to ignore that fact. Try another excuse!
Is this just a column for self-glorification, for YOU to give smart answers to SELECTED questions and for the free-thinkers to band together to slam Christians? IF this IS a debate, then at least allow the opposition to present their case FAIRLY, properly and above all HONESTLY, and don't misquote and manipulate, so that it is not one-sided.
You put your trust in Scientists, we choose to trust God, I made it clear, many OLD theories are DISCARDED, to be replaced by NEW ones, and many things are STILL to be discovered, or were destroyed by volcanoes etc. No one knows where the first human remains ARE. They could be buried anywhere, it is only what we've uncovered, SO FAR. How can you base your arguements on that? (not in your text either, quite convenient.) Scientists have been PROVEN WRONG in many cases and don't know everything! (Pluto the Planet?)
Gary, why did you stop the text on TOO LATE! (about the flood) without the rest of the sentence which says, **"you had ample WARNING, but you SCOFFED and wanted PROOF."** which is exactly what you free-thinkers are doing today, which is the whole POINT of the sentence. (except now its about Jesus coming, and believing the Bible and not the flood) and you conveniently omitted it. And Thomas? Gary, this is not honest editing.
It may be a good time to suck on some oxygen right now!Why is it important to you, to flaunt your GOOD WORKS and want receipts. Here is yet, another sentence you took completely OUT OF CONTEXT and manipulated. The sentence says **"live your own selfish lives,"** the rest says **"without any guilt of anything you've ever SAID OR DONE....."** meaning you need to REPENT and be ACCOUNTABLE for sins. Not give money? How does that fit? I thought perhaps you misunderstood, but all the other manipulations prove otherwise. This is where you label me an ASS---.
A true Christians is living to do Gods will for their lives, and NOT their own "selfish" will. God has a purpose for our lives and no matter how painful it is, we do it because Christ loved us first, so much, that he died for us.
Selfish is also not ONLY financial? You could be selfish with your time, possessions etc, selfish does not = money.Not everything relates to money, you know. But it seems, that was the only way, you could slip in, how GOOD you think YOU are, so you can be ADMIRED more, by your free-thinkers.
URGENT! Exreme Oxygen Needed NOW!!! The Bible quotes (**"Don't do your good works PUBLICLY, to be ADMIRED. When you give a gift to someone in need, DON'T shout about it like the hypocrites do - to call attention to their act of charity. Give your gifts in SECRET."**) and another (**"your good deeds are as FILTHY RAGS."**)
The label YOU used for me was ASS.... when you completely manipulated what I wrote. That was totally DISHONEST editing Gary. You have proved that you CANNOT be trusted, to present the truth. Who is the really the ASS... here?
You give atheists a really bad name. Are all atheists like you? Because with your beliefs, you are never ACCOUNTABLE for your actions, you lie and manipulate? Is your wife and family like that too, is that what you, as a free-thinker TEACH them, is okay, to do? Excellent role model?It is YOU, that should get real Gary. I certainly SHALL ENJOY Heaven without all the Atheists and free-thinkers.
Gary, it seems obvious by the way you've cleverly edited, and twisted, manipulated and omitted things from my letter, you are NOT an honest and genuine person and people should be very weary and SUSPICIOUS, of what your AGENDA really is. I am genuinely sorry and feel especially, for your family. Mabe THAT should be labeled "criminal." You are just putting a curse on your generations, that follow you. (Not that that would worry you.) But Gary, that REALLY is sad.
If you dropped a computer on earth 100 years ago, how would anyone have known what to do with it. With no instruction manual, it would mean nothing, but look at all the information it can hold. And a computer chip, flash stick etc. and still more improvements are coming.
Why can't God be like that and hold all the information too?
I tried to give you explainations, which obviously didn't work so I will revert to the word of GOD. (**"Just as you can hear the wind, but cannot tell where it comes from, or where it is going, so you CAN'T explain, how people are born of the spirit."**) That is why we can understand meaningless words strung together. If you are not spirit-filled you won't get it.
God is your Father and not some mystic thing. He loves us all, EVEN YOU, and invites us, (not commands us), into a loving relationship, with him, through his Son. It is YOUR FREE CHOICE . You can't say you never knew, when you eventually do have to testify. Christianity is BASED on FAITH (like I said). What use is faith, if there IS absolute evidence? EVERYONE would believe and you WOULDN"T need FAITH at all. I feel His pain, when you reject His offer. How would you feel if your own son rejected you? I can't imagine a worse kind of pain.
By the way, How do Scientists come to the conclusion about water on the earth anyway? Do you know, or are you just taking their word for it? Father GOD is Supernatural and (**"nothing is impossible with GOD."**) (**"He makes a way, where there seems to be NO way and does miracles without number."**)
Anyway, I did really think you really were looking for plausable answers and that mabe, we could somehow work together, to find them, and it would be FUN. Naive aren't I, or the word you would use is, gullable. I was warned by more knowledgable people, and even non-Christians what to expect. And you proved to be very PREDICTABLE and right on track.
I think a web-site should be opened, where NO ONE CONTROLS what is printed and then everyone can make up their own minds, when presented with all the opinions and don't get a biased opinion. At least then, readers can make up their own minds, when they have ALL the facts, without them being twisted, DISTORTED, manipulated or quoted out-of-context.
Gary, what gives you the right to distort, what someone has written? Are you that INSECURE? That you have to RESORT TO underhandedness and lie to get people on your side.
OR if there is a possible explaination, I'd REALLY like to hear it.
I shall look into an HONEST web-site. Whether you print this or not, (lets see how predictable you are) at least you and I and God know the truth. This is NOT for my glory. TIME will PROVE, which one of us, is RIGHT. So you had better, Enjoy your life on earth, with sickness and diseases, rape, corruption, violence, lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, adultry, selfishness etc. etc. (apparently, it is the ONLY one, you'll have.)
I have emphasized words and made very short paragraphs to make it easier to understand, and not misread, and hopefully to possibly answer, THIS TIME, Surprise me!
And stop steriotyping Christians, I enjoyed the "Exam paper" it was very funny, but not in a mocking way. I also thought the DA Vinci code was a really good story. Dan Brown just claimed it was FACT (incorrect), probably for publicity. In that game any publicity, is good.
I am CERTAIN that you didn't enjoy this LOW flying, not sure that I did either, but fear not! This will be our last flight together, I don't fly with pilots, that I don't trust. Perhaps you might like to disembark through the emergency exit.
I shall ALWAYS pray for you, and especially for your family.
Believe it or not, I am always
A Concerned Friend
Janette
I must admit that I am only now truly beginning to see the depth of people’s beliefs. It is obvious that no amount of logical reasoning will ever convince the truly religious. Radical christians will no doubt always find sufficient reason to continue with their line of thinking which of course is no problem at all. The huge pity is that they brainwash their children into believing the same load of codswallop, and the whole cycle then repeats itself. I too was heavily brainwashed, from birth. I was forced to attend Sunday school even though, as a young boy, I already had my doubts about religion. I was then forced to attend church every Sunday, I was forced to attend the army for two years, where we were again brainwashed with religious dogma daily. When I switch on the television at 6am to see the news and weather, I first have to be prayed to by some or other religious person. People like me are becoming weary of the constant stream of religious persuasion wherever we go.
To this day, there are still millions of people that genuinely believe in the tokoloshe. They put their beds up on bricks to protect them from this terrible creature. They really, really believe in their tokoloshe and no amount of dissuasion ever helps. In the same vein, there are billions of people that genuinely believe that they have a personal conversation with a god every day. They really, really believe that, and I doubt whether someone like me would ever be able to convince them that it is all in their vivid imaginations. People are continually brainwashed with superstition, and they then brainwash their children, and they their children, and so the superstition cycle continues. People really, really believe that, if they are born between a certain set of dates, and are therefore a Scorpio or whatever, that some person sitting in a newsroom somewhere can then accurately predict what will happen in their lives next week. People really do believe that an Aries and a Cancer or whatever, will or won’t make a good couple merely because of the dates they were born on. Trying to explain to such people that the very idea is ludicrous has no effect, the so-called astrologers continue to milk the masses for what they can get out of propagating their particular brand of superstition.
The letter above from Janette shows how vicious people will become in order to protect their fragile world of make-believe. If her words were daggers I would now be a sieve. The underlying hatred in every sentence actually scares me, and I really hope that I do not run into her somewhere. The scary part is that she knows what my wife and I look like too.
Hi Gary,
You made the statement that you would not put long boring letters onto the website and then publish a whole lot of drivel by Janette. I admire your patience and appreciate the time you must take to formulate your polite replies. To respond to everything she wrote would take ages so I will keep it short with one point:
Faith is believing in something without evidence. When it's religion, it's called faith, when it's anything else it's called stupidity and gullibility.
Best wishes,
Humphrey
Hi Gary – quite a shock to hear from you and thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I guess you are a busy fellow and time is a very precious commodity – esp. when you only have one life to live!
I have met many atheists but few with as much gentleness and patience as you project and I really would like to continue our discussion if you are able.
First up though, I must correct you on some misunderstandings that you seem to presume. If my letter conveyed the impression that I have no idea what or where we came from – well no that’s not the case. I am very sure! I am very sure that “someone out there is listening” but I will not bore you with why I know this to be so in my own experiences in life – this is not the “proof” you are seeking.
Secondly – I agree with you that many church goers are very scared of dying, so they invent the story of going to heaven when you die – know what – the Bible says nowhere that you go to heaven when you die! Quote John 3 v13 – in case some Christians give you a hard time!! You are absolutely right – when you are dead – you are just as unconscious as in the operating theatre – you know nothing. The Bible nowhere speaks of an immortal soul or even the concept! Yet most churches teach it because as you say they are frightened of death and the unknown. I am def. not! I have a wonderful hope that I have shared with all my family and children and am very willing to share with you. Death need not be the end – but that’s another story – if you would like to continue the discussion.
I have a sure hope – you on the other hand have only eternal non existence to look forward to and share with your family.
The third point I make is that incorrectly you state that I have no idea why I am here. That is one of the most important questions you can ask and I sadly have to confirm that 9 out of 10 Christians or indeed most religions cannot answer that question. Or the other most important one – why did this power, that you acknowledge must exist – why did he make the earth – so very unique in a million ways, that no way can it be an accident. Well I have the answer to both and am very willing to share it with you.
Your comment – “I live my life – I do not spend it preparing to die”, kind of sums up humanity’s philosophy - that I am owed life – I have rights and no responsibilities – life is for me, mine, so let’s eat drink and fly!! I on the other hand believe true joy is in living life to God or whatever power you acknowledge made the universe and finding out what is required of us in these few 70 or 80 years.
The question remains however that you have not addressed any of the points I wrote about concerning a power beyond us. For e.g. take just one and let me know please how you can answer the question of Symbiosis - fully developed structures that need each other and cannot exist without each other. Can that happen by accident in a fraction of time?? But maybe your statement that you acknowledge that there must be something or someone that planned all this answers my question?
If that is the case then you are not an atheist – rather an agnostic and if you have the humility, patience and wisdom to continue to search for answers I believe that you will one day, find an answer that satisfies you and find true peace of mind – that you can share with your family. And you seem to have an open mind about these matters.
You talk of flying – without order in the universe that would be impossible. Who put order there?
When man gazes into the heavens, he sees something of the glory and wonder of a Creator. The Bible describes God as "hanging the world upon nothing" (Job 26:7), and speaks of the "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:2).
Have you ever thought of the weight of the globe which is computed at 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons, and considered the mighty power that projected it into space at a speed of 29.7 kilometres per second and continues to hold it in position by the mysterious force of gravity? This speed makes your fastest, most powerful plane seem stationary! Have you ever pondered the mystery of those mighty heavenly bodies all hurtling through space at tremendous speeds; and yet all subject to such laws of precision that astronomers can predict their position in relation to the earth to the minute? Is this mighty power and marvelous precision an evidence of Creation or Chance ?
Unconsciously, the evolutionist gives his witness to the marvelous prescience and wisdom of God, because the growth and influence of this theory in these last days is clearly predicted in God's word. The Bible declares: "Know this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming?... for this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth..." (2 Peter 3:4-5).
Here is a Bible prophecy clearly stating that in the "last days" men would be "willingly ignorant" of the facts of creation! The widespread teaching of the evolutionary theory, in spite of the evidence that can be brought against it, is a fulfillment of this prediction. Is it not a remarkable thing, that God should predict the very trend that is so obvious today? Scripture shows that the theory will be responsible for the moral decline that would be a feature of the "last days" prior to Christ's coming to set up his kingdom on earth, so that the widespread, blind acceptance of this myth of evolution is a significant "sign of the times."
We need to heed these warnings, prophetic words of the Bible, and refuse to bow down to such a God-defying doctrine as evolution, which in spite of the claims of so-called learned men, cannot be proved as true, and remains just a desperate theory.
It is so arrogant of mankind to think that he is the top of the life chain and there is no greater wisdom or power beyond him. I sincerely hope you will not embrace this mind set.
Dear Gary, your letter was like a breath of fresh air – no one has anything to hide or fear if they truly seek answers without preconceived ideas.
I hope we may continue to correspond and maybe deal with just one subject at a time?? You choose.
My best wishes to you and your family.
Michael
Hullo Michael
Been flat-out busy, little time for emailing these days..... can only respond with a short email.
"Death need not be the end – but that’s another story – if you would like to continue the discussion.
I have a sure hope"
The above is a quote from your email. I continually state that Christians are living in fear of dying. Why do you so crave more life after this one? Have you ever given thought to the possibility that this is it? That this is not a dress rehearsal? That this is your one chance to have an absolute ball and achieve everything that you possibly can? Most people never really make much effort to get anywhere but then harp on about them "merely waiting for their next life". Well, I have sad and disappointing news for them.
My belief is that people, who are dissatisfied with this life, long for another one, one better than what we now have, so they have invented christianity which promises an afterlife. Just like martyrs are promised "a river of wine, a river of honey, and 72 virgins", they then believe that they must go and kill people, all in the name of their 'belief'. There are a great many 'beliefs' out there, so christianity is not novel in any way. It is just another of the many.
Why worry so much about "your next life", when there is little logic to presume that there is one? You say that "god told you this and god told you that" but really, there is no voice booming from the sky. There is also most certainly no chance of one person, or supernatural being, chatting individually to a few billion people each day. Yet most christians claim to have "personal discussions with god". Mmmm.... I don't think so. I think that there are merely billions of people that have been badly brainwashed, and do not know how to break out of that mould.
Why are there so many youngsters that go to sunday school and church? Youngsters (say 16 and below) are not able to make adult decisions yet churches and sunday schools are filled with them. The very sad truth is that their parents have either forced them, or brainwashed them, to go. Extremely sad. It really is.
Kind regards
Gary Wiblin
Dear Gary
Sorry that reply is such a cop out. You do not address any of the issues I mentioned.
So you are too busy – fine, but don’t insult my intelligence with such a reply. Either be serious and take time to reply properly or just eat, drink, fly and be merry - for yes tomorrow you will die and if that’s all you want – so be it; your choice. Know you have no time for the Bible but dare you to try to find time to read – Luke chp 12 v15-31 You remind me so much of the rich man who lives only for this life!
No I am not “living in fear of death” – read my email properly!!
You write in a tone whereby you seem to know all the answers – bordering on arrogance.
Christianity was no “invention” - that is so rude and dishonest – but does reveal a lot about your character.
I never ever said “God told me this or that” – that is a lie - and if you are not willing to give time to a gentle and sensible discussion on the most important questions on life - “why am I alive” and “why is the world so amazingly designed” – so be it – your choice – but you do not address the issues at all for one reason or other.
You can get headlines in the newspaper with you shocking views - but when you hopefully one day learn a bit of humility and start listening to others who might have a smidgeon more wisdom and experience than you - instead of presuming to know what they think and why – then come back to me.
Not that I am the source of wisdom! - but I do believe my life NOW - is so far more satisfying that yours and I most def have a sure hope beyond the grave.
You instead – what do you offer to your family – NOTHING! - - fun and games now, - - - and then? - - oblivion. Sis!
Sad – thought we could have had a meaningful discussion on real life issues but see you too busy to put your mind to it
Best Regards
Michael
Well, it didn't take long for Michaels argument to stoop to this level. As soon as I pose questions demanding answers, out come the bible quotes, and the bad attitude. Michael also harps on and on and on about this wonderful world he will be going to one day. Why are christians so dissatisfied with this one? Why do they need to constantly reassure themselves that this one is merely an audition? Are the lives of christians so unsatisfactory that they need to desperately hope for another chance? It certainly seems so. You state: "I most def have a sure hope beyond the grave". You hang on to that hope Michael. You spend this life yearning for a possible next life, I intend living this one to the hilt.
It's like people who spend their lives gambling and playing the lotto in the desire to "have a better life". Everyone seems to crave more than they now have, whereas the bible implicitly states that greed is a sin. I'll say it again; live this life to the full, it is most likely the only one you are going to have. If it turns out that you wake up after death to find that you are about to have another life, great. If not though, you really won't know about it. You won't exist anymore.
"You can get headlines in the newspaper with you shocking views - but when you hopefully one day learn a bit of humility and start listening to others who might have a smidgeon more wisdom and experience than you"
This quote by you tells me a lot about you Michael. So you say my views are shocking? Merely because they are diametrically opposed to your belief? In other words, you are stating that anybody who does not believe in what you believe, you do not like? Do you therefore hate jews? Muslims? Anyone else that you may find their views shocking? So you presume that you have more wisdom than I do because I do not agree with your religion? Somewhat conceited aren't you Michael. I have been bombarded with religious indoctrination my entire life, hence my 'going public' with my views, in the hope that people will keep their religion to themselves from now on, and not harrass the rest of us with it.
P.S. Think carefully about this phrase by you: "sure hope". Sure means "free of doubt" whereas hope means "to expect and desire". The words are antonyms ie. opposite in meaning to one another. It's like saying "I might definitely go there".
I’ve just read the blog as of 16 July. “Wow” is about all I can say. I have always known that people can become very “touchy” when their beliefs are questioned, but the last letter is just plain nasty and actually somewhat threatening. If I may, please let me respond to all of the Janette’s of this world.
People, if you really follow Christ and proclaim to live by his word, please, search deeply and ask yourself truthfully if he would approve of your venomous tongue. I can assure you that he doesn’t need or ask of you to lash out at others who do not agree. It suffices to say that in fact by doing so; you actually diminish your faith and give ammunition against yourself.
As for the assertion that “free thinkers” are somehow enemies of Christianity is absolute rubbish. That science is a hindrance, or worse, some form of Devil inspired attempt to mislead mankind is just plain paranoid. I personally have no problem whatsoever with both existing harmoniously. In fact the more I learn from science the more I am comfortable that the two will merge. People like me and I believe, Gary have enquiring minds and do not accept everything and anything at face value alone. I have always had a questioning relationship with what I believe is God. Sometimes I have been downright angry, even resentful, but I have never feared that because I have a thinking mind (you believe he gave us) I will be brutally punished. On the contrary if I didn’t use it, I would then be called to answer. To emphasize my point, about two years ago I suffered a stroke at age 46. I was unable to walk for six weeks and was partially blinded for a month. A year later I had a heart attack. On both these occasions I believed that it was tickets, and I can testify that not once did I feel afraid of some terrible judgment to come. I find it absurd that a person can suddenly deny what they have always been. (I’ve since recovered)
Anyway methinks that the world would be better off if more people did open their minds and got away from the “us and “them” mentality, be more like what Gandhi said “I am a Hindu, a Christian, a Buddhist, a Muslim and a Jew. To those who look elsewhere for answers, be sure to call if you find anything.
For those interested on where we are as a civilization there is an excellent article, go to
http://www.angelfire.com/sd/occultic/civili.html. Don’t be put off by the address, it really is interesting. Search for Type 1, 2, 3 civilizations if it doesn’t come up straight away.
Kevin
July 17, 2007 12:46 PM
mark said...
I would like to ask Janette et al a simple question, if, presuming that you are correct and there is a heaven and an afterlife, when you die and meet God and he turns out to be the Mayan God "Hunab Ku
The supreme diety - the creator god" and he asks you why you have worshipped a false God and discarded Hunab Ku as mere mythology, what will you say?
I have since begun reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and my goodness, what refreshing insight he offers into the possible beginnings of humankind. He also discusses, in detail, the great many inconsistencies and blatant contradictions in the bible. He offers scientific reason for everything and it is so refreshing to revel in such basic logic. I am now about halfway through it and already I can see that this will be one of the references I will steer radical christians to when they say to me; “but just read the bible”. Also, those that constantly quote from this tired old tome will also be told to go and read Dawkins to get real. I am sure Mr Dawkins will not mind me taking this quote from his fantastic book:
“Imagine a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews, no Northern Ireland ‘troubles’, no ‘honour killings’, no shiny-suited bouffant-haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money (God wants you to give till it hurts). Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing an inch of it.”
A truer paragraph I have yet to read. Also, why is the cross worn on chains around the necks of Christians? The cross was one of the most gruesome and cruel means of terrible torture ever devised by evil minds. People were beaten to a pulp, then nailed to these structures, and left to hang there for up to a week before finally expiring from exposure to the sun, pain, thirst, hunger, and loss of blood. When it seemed that they were taking too long to die their legs were smashed with poles so that there would be no support below them and the force on their arms would slowly asphyxiate them. This while hundreds of equally bloodthirsty people stood around baying for more suffering to be inflicted. They tortured people in this way before Jesus and they no doubt continued with others after him. Yet this obscene tool of terrible torture hangs around the necks of Christians as some sort of beautiful sign of their lord. Why not then merely hang a noose around their necks? Or an electric chair? Or a guillotine? Or a spear, or whatever?
Almost all Christians blindly believe “just in case”. Isn’t that somewhat shallow? You don’t think that, if there actually is a god, he would see through such shallow attempts to please him and that he would more respect a human who inquires and tries to see real reason?
Something else; Christians all truly believe that every one of us will one day stand at attention before their god, and be individually judged by this punishment-giver. If the planet has some 6 billion humans on it, that would mean that about 5 people die every second of every day. I wonder how this chap does these judgments so darn quickly – five every second, 24/7?
Dear Gary
I read with interest your letter to Week-End Post of some time back - not with horror, but rather with semi-agreement. Though I am what might be termed a Christian, I too at times question the Scriptures (which surely is allowed) and I am amused that so many find comfort in the fact that because the Bible says so we must all agree and many feel that because they might be termed "Born Again' they are ' Holier Than Thou' and rush to press to judge and condemn those who question. Surely it is allowed and in so doing not be condemned to doom. You are right in your statement that the Bible was compiled by man at 'that time' but we are now living in a period where science plays a major role. I sympathize with your views but at the same time believe that on must have some handle in life - some belief - some theory - be it what it may - were it not so the Asylums would be over crowded. Maybe Chesterton had a point when he wrote "Do all the good you can and make no fuss about it". Surely it is not required to display and stand on ones head and shout out loud one's commitments to enter the Kingdom of Heaven but rather try to live a life as suggested in the Commandments.
Richard
